| The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? March 22 2002 at 12:08 AM No score for this post Henry Ellis (no login) As everyone is now aware the Ellis Schools of Aikido resigned from the BAB at the AGM 16th March 2002. I had not intended to make any further posts until I had heard further from the BAB. This late evening I received a call from the newly elected chairman of the BAB Mr Vincent Sumpter, to say that he was sorry that we had resigned, when I asked about the proposed meeting with the BAB-Mr Poole and myself, I was informed that as we the ESTA had resigned the matter was now closed and no further action to be taken. Please note below our letter of resignation. 16th-March-002 Att: Mr Toni Davis Chairman to the BAB Dear Sir We the Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido, tender our resignation from the BAB as of the above date. We have no further confidence in the BAB as a competent governing body due to the boards inept handling of the Jack Poole Controversy. In the past two years the board have not replied to any of my correspondence, including information on first aid courses as requested. I recently received the minutes to the last meeting, these were the first in almost eighteen months. It is now very obvious after two years of the "Controversy" being a major topic of debate in the Aikido community that the BAB have no intention of addressing this matter which has brought the credibility of the BAB into disrepute and derision. How can any organisation or any individual member have the confidence and faith to approach the so called "Governing Body" with any future dispute after what has been a very public loss of trust as shown by the apparent cowardice of this chairman and his executive. Yours Faithfully Henry Ellis ********** Below is an extract of a letter from the BAB to a third party. this was the high esteem in which I was held until I upset the BAB. Dear Sir With reference to our telephone conversation today, I confirm that Mr Henry Ellis has been associated with the BAB since its inception in 1975 and is very highly respected by its membership. The board have never received any complaints or disparaging , defamatory remarks concerning Mr Ellis or members ofhis Association. In the early 1950's Aikido was introduced into the UK by two instructor from Japan and Mr Ellis was one of the first people to practice this Martial Art. Many of his contemporaries of that time are still practising and teaching and together with Mr Ellis they are very highly revered and respected by practitioners of Aikido and other associated Martial Arts. Mrs S D Timms Secretary to the British Aikido Board. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. Author Reply Aiki-Mike (Login Aiki-Mike) The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 22 2002, 12:19 AM I'm in total disbelief. Just what the hell is going on, has the BAB gone stark raving mad for f**k sake ? Mr. Sumpter, this is NOT the way to set an example for the rest of UK aikido. Trust me, I doubt Mr. Ellis and I are the only ones to think the BAB is full of shite Mike Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. John John (no login) Please hang fire... No score for this post March 22 2002, 1:33 AM Guys look, this is the first I have heard of this, let me speak to Shirley and the other members to find out what is going on. I know on Saturday that it was said that the BAB did not wish to, and were not going to accept the resignation of Mr. Ellis's association. This is obviously the first I have heard of this and I for one am also completely shocked if this is what has been said. I don't mean that to sound like I don't believe Mr. Ellis, just that I would like to hear this from the other members of the Exec. Let me speak to Shirley tomorrow evening and I will post the gist of the conversation. I have no idea why the new chairman has said what he has said as he does not have the power to make such decisions! Regards, John. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. Ben Wiers Ben Wiers (Login benwiers) Forum Moderator The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 22 2002, 1:07 PM John Thanks for your input, I will lock the thread off for now. When you have further information to post please drop either me or dave an email and we will re-open the thread. I can be contacted on ben@aikido-database.co.uk -Ben Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. David Humm David Humm (Premier Login database-admin) Forum Owner Further info from the BAB No score for this post March 23 2002, 7:12 PM This is the email I received from John, I hope it goes some way to clarify the matter. Quote "Hi Guys, Had a call off Shirley this morning, she was away last night. She was not aware of the BAB deciding that we were no longer going to get Jack and Henry together. She also mentioned that Henry's association had not actually resigned as yet in any case because it takes 2 months in order for the resignation to become effective and nobody wants that at all. I then spoke to Vince Sumpter (I didn't have his details as he was only voted in at the last meeting)... He called me back today and I asked him what he'd said on Sunday night. It looks like the two of them were talking at crossed purposes, from what I can gather Vince said when asked about the meeting that the matter was closed as it was in the hands of the solicitors and they (ESTA) were no longer members. What he meant by this was that he didn't think he should be talking to Henry about this issue as it is being dealt with by a solicitor NOT that it was being withdrawn. The statement about them (ESTA) no longer being members was obviously incorrect as I suspect only just becoming the chairman he's not looked at the constitution too heavily yet! I hope this make the position clearer now, in addition, I think the letter we've drafted has been accepted and all legal and above board by the solicitor. Will let you know more as and when, if you have any further questions please ask away! Regards, John." Dave Humm Webmaster dave@aikido-database.co.uk Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Andy Stevenson (Login StevensonA) Who is the official spokes-person ? No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:20 AM John. I see you are taking the trouble to keep the UK community informed concerning the JP / HE situation which is great however, I seem to recall you saying you were not officially their spokesman (or words to that effect) Can I ask who actually is responsible for making officially endorsed statements on behalf of the Board ? Do you in fact have someone designated with this responsibility, if not, perhaps it's a matter that should be discussed at your next meeting. I'd like to see Mr. Sumpter being active within these forums, that way members at grass roots level can communicate with him easily. Naturally I don't expect the Chairman to openly discuss 'closed' BAB issues however, having a direct and open means of communicating with the 'man himself' would I'm sure be a good idea. Andy Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Dave Humm Dave Humm (Premier Login database-admin) Forum Owner I second that No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:22 AM Andy wrote: "having a direct and open means of communicating with the 'man himself' would I'm sure be a good idea." I second that sentiment. Dave Humm Webmaster dave@aikido-database.co.uk Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Ben Wiers Ben Wiers (Login benwiers) Forum Moderator The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:25 AM Me too. Mr. Sumpter, hope to see you join in the forums. Please register and feel free to as you see fit. Ben Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Aikidoist (Login aikidoist) Hmm.. bet he aint got the bottle No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:27 AM NT Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Ben Wiers Ben Wiers (Login benwiers) Forum Moderator The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:30 AM Aikidoist.. Are you a natural cynic or did you have to work hard to develop that level of distrust ? Give the guy a break Ben Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. Aiki-Mike (no login) Now I'd be impressed... No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:43 AM ... if Jack Poole expressed his opinion on this forum. I have it on good authority that he is well aware of what's happening on this forum. Jack.. Pull your finger out mate the clock is ticking, is Don King managing you or Henry ? I hope you both behave, I don't want either of you biting ears, thighs or punching below the belt ok ? Lets have a good clean fight.. Touch gloves and come our fighting. <ding ding> I think it's round 1 to Henry for getting the BAB to listen after two years. Round 2, any bets ? (apologies for the sarcasm) Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Marc Willerby (Login aikidoist) The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 24 2002, 9:47 AM Yeh sorry. I was just expressing my thoughts 'out loud' so to speak Marc Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. John John (no login) I can speak for the BAB... No score for this post March 24 2002, 5:45 PM Hi guys, I can speak for the BAB, if they have somethng official to state then I can post responses etc. The problem I have is that I also have opinions on things that may very well go against what the BAB think or have done but it's very difficult for me to make those statements because someone somewhere from this board is going to say.. 'well, john said...' I don't mean that the way it probably sounded, it's just that it's sort of hard to be able to speak on both sides of the coin. As for the chairman taking part here... Well, not all of the board have direct access to the internet I'm afraid and I really have no idea if he even has a PC. I will ask him though! I guess maybe I'll create a BAB account and anything offical can be posted from that. Regards, John. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. al montemar al montemar (no login) The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 25 2002, 6:48 AM After reading the first response to Henry Ellis, then the second response to David Humm from the BAB's new chairman concerning the Controversy; i'd like to add this comment: "Different chairman, different day, Same Old BAB". -al Dispute is now with the BAB March 25 2002 at 12:06 PM No score for this post Andy Lyon (no login) It appears that some readers of this forum feel that Mr Ellis has it in for Mr Poole. As a member of the Ellis School and in close contact with both Mr Ellis and Mr Eastman I would like to point out that the dispute is now between Mr Ellis and the BAB. It is clear that the history of Mr Poole has been described and 'proved beyond all reasonable doubt' to any reader with a mind of their own. Unless Mr Poole explains any of his history to the 'meeting' if it ever takes place, I don't think we will ever get any more from him than we already have. The real issue now is that Sensei Ellis made reasonable requests over 2 years ago to the BAB for them to look into claims by Mr Poole which were ignored. What could have been a very simple and descreet dispute has been turned into a farce called 'Carry on BAB'. The BAB have had access to all of the facts in the 'Controversy' article, and Mr Ellis's concerns long before it was ever published on the internet. It is clear that whatever the BAB really think, the appearance is as follows: The BAB, although the governing body, is not interested in anything other than the amount of members within its organisation. If you become 'Pally' with the board, you can claim almost anything and get away with it. The BAB will quite happily send out a leaflet for a member organisation, promoting a seminar for Jack Pooles 'celebration of over 47 years in Aikido' effectively giving this a BAB endorsement without checking up on this at all. The BAB can give awards to people with no explanation to the criteria given to the earning of this award. If you are a BAB member and you have a dispute, either with the BAB or another party within it, you will have to be unbelievably patient and tenacious. There is no proper or effective mechanism for resolving disputes. ___________ I personally think it is disgusting that the sort of indifference experienced by Mr Ellis from the BAB has lead to a resignation. Two distinguished instructors, Sensei Henry Ellis and Sensei Derek Eastman who were instrumental in the development of Aikido within the UK have been stonewalled by the BAB. Both of these instructors legitimately recieved the BAB's 'Samurai Statue' for more than 4O years of Aikido. Both have now resigned. It is a testament to Mr Ellis's patience that he persisted for so long. The other members of the Ellis Schools, including myself were clear that we were perfectly happy to leave the BAB as we did not feel there were any tangible benefits to remaining within this organisation. The BAB still have many questions to answer to justify their actions during this dispute. For the remaining members of the BAB, I wish you luck in achieving the following: A well thought out and effective manner of resolving disputes. A representative who is easily contactable and able to give the 'official' view to forums such as these. A BAB that publishes its accounts to its members. The receipt of apologies when the Board 'screw it up.' If the BAB decide to 'ratify' Dan grades, I hope it isn't going to cost you too much. Most of all, a governing body that actually governs, and is worthy of the trust of its membership. To quote Sensei Ellis 'Don't hold your breath!' There will be those amongst you who will feel that as a member of Mr Ellis's organisation, I will naturally be on Mr Ellis's side. I have no problems with that. It will be clear to anyone that has read about this dispute that I am likely to be on Mr Ellis's side, as people with that point of view are the ones who have the decency to attach their names to what they write. Andy Lyon. Mark Greenwood (Login dimmak) No it's the blind leading the blind No score for this post March 26 2002, 11:33 AM My personal opinion on the Bab is that they do not know what they are doing. Harsh, well here is my evidence. The BAB state "The constituted purpose of the British Aikido Board is to further the advancement of all styles of Aikido in the United Kingdom and to establish and monitor standards of safety and behaviour conducive to the safety of practitioners of Aikido." How have they fulfilled any of that? There is also the charge that they have accepted bribes, or has this been forgotten? We have also seen the British Sports Council wash their hands of this matter, I wonder if the International Olympic Committee, if they were made aware of the situation, would do the same? My end conclusion is that unfortunately nothing will be done on the matter. The final statement on the Bab website says " It is hoped that all Aikido groups within the United Kingdom will eventually join together under this "Aikido Umbrella". I hope they have a very big umbrella! Aiki Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. Justin Justin (no login) In perspective No score for this post March 26 2002, 12:20 PM ><snip> >I guess maybe I'll create a BAB account and anything >offical can be posted from that. > >Regards, John > John, I'm sure anyone using this forum will appreciate that, but I'd rather see the BAB putting official information, minutes etc on their own website, rather than this forum which, let's face it, is just a nice site set up by Dave, with no 'official' BAB standing to my knowledge - no disrespect intended Dave! . I think it is unrealistic to expect this forum to be anything other than a general disussion forum for people to share thoughts and ideas (& I'm all in favour of that!) but to expect major issues, such as the future of the BAB or those where solicitors are involved, to be resolved on this site is a little naive in my opinion. No one has specifically said that this is what they expect, but it is certainly my preception of what some contributors think (am I wrong?). To critisise individuals (such as Mr Sumpter) for not contributing to this small corner of our world just because some of us want him to would be grossly unfair to the gentleman, Don't get me wrong - I'm all in favour of discussion lists and forums, and actively contribute to several aikido ones, but I just don't think that 10 people shouting on this particular forum amounts to a major voice in the aikido world although it is clearly getting louder. Personally, I'd like to see a more active BAB site. John - can you see if you can bring your influence to bear on that? Justin Dave Humm Dave Humm (Premier Login database-admin) Forum Owner The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 26 2002, 2:45 PM Justin wrote : "I'd rather see the BAB putting official information, minutes etc on their own website, rather than this forum which, let's face it, is just a nice site set up by Dave, with no 'official' BAB standing to my knowledge - no disrespect intended Dave!" Justin your absolutely right, this website is only one of many thousands out there in 'virtual aikido'. And no, I haven't / wouldn't take offence at your comments regarding where the BAB should post it's official news, because your right. I would support the BAB in creating it's own forums, in fact I think if you read a prior message of mine somewhere in here, you will see I suggested this a while ago. Kind regards Dave Humm Webmaster dave@aikido-database.co.uk Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. John John (no login) Re: The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 26 2002, 3:16 PM Justin / Dave, Well, the minutes will soon be added to the BAB site, as soon as I can get them in electronic form then they can be posted, the section is ready, I'm just waiting for the information to arrive! As for the BAB hosting a discussion group on it's site then that is not something I'd really want to see to be honest. There are more than enough discussion groups in existence. Dates for meetings etc. can and will be posted on the website in the future. I will also make sure that the dates of the exec meetings will be posted too, as I've stated before anyone is more than welcome to come along to these id they have something they wish to speak about or questions they wish to ask. I guess also, now you've suggested it that a 'news' section for the BAB site would be a good idea. Thanks, I'll get round to it as and when I can. I also agree that it does appear that a number of people are hoping that some of the issues with Mr. Ellis, Mr. Poole and the BAB are going to be sorted out on here. It's not going to happen that way! I have to say though that this forum has been good for bringing things out into the open somewhat, I for one was not aware that much of this was still going on until I visited the site after getting an email from Dave. I wasn't with the BAB when all of this happened so I wasn't really too aware of the issue in the first place. Regards, John. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. John John (no login) In Response to Mark Greenwood No score for this post March 26 2002, 3:27 PM Mark, I'll try to answer some of your comments... Mark said - "The constituted purpose of the British Aikido Board is to further the advancement of all styles of Aikido in the United Kingdom and to establish and monitor standards of safety and behaviour conducive to the safety of practitioners of Aikido." How have they fulfilled any of that? Coaching awards, coaching courses, first aid, insurance, yep I'd say the BAB have fullfilled all of the above. Mark said - There is also the charge that they have accepted bribes What proof do you have of this? Please supply me with it and I'll deal with it and get back to you. Mark said - I wonder if the International Olympic Coommittee, if they were made aware of the situation... Hmmmm, not too sure but last time I checked the only people practising sports aikido were the BAA, not too sure how relevant this point is! Am I missing something here? Regards, John. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. Mark Greenwood (Login dimmak) Re: The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 26 2002, 4:25 PM Thanks for your reply John. With regards to the first statement on the Bab site, i fully agree that with the courses you pointed out they are fulfilling what they say, but as regards to establishing and monitoring standards of behaviour, i do not. The Jack Poole saga is evidence of that. As for accepting bribes, within the controversy saga, 16th January, Henry Ellis mentioned, from a source within the Bab that if Jack Poole did not receive his statue his organisation would pull themselves from the Bab, this screams of bribery to me, yet this seems to have been forgotten. The international Olympic committee are the world governing body for sport, and the British Sports council are answerable to them, and the Bab boast recognization to the British Sports council . What i was trying to say, if the Bab or the British sports council don't want to intervene, maybe the world governing body for sport will. Or maybe the Bab are using the British Sports councils name in vain to endorse themselves. But this whole episode should have been dealt with by the Bab, when the issue first arose. In whole, maybe the Bab have come across an area that they don't know how to deal with. But by not dealing with the problem it has got bigger and bigger. As an end note, there is a proverb about removing the rafter from your own eye before the straw out of your brothers. I'm not trying to apportion blame, i am not happy with how things have been dealt with, especially if the Bab are trying to act as a governing body for aikido, and i'm paying money to them for that sevice. Or do i just pay money to them for insurance purposes while i train? Aiki Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. John John (no login) Re: The BAB ~ A bunch of cowards ? No score for this post March 26 2002, 4:58 PM Hi Mark, I do agree that the BAB have not handled this whole situation very well (this is my own personal thought here!!). Although, I think that in getting these two together to talk about and come to some sort of understanding is moving in the right direction, it should have been done a long time ago however. I would also welcome after the meeting for Mr.Ellis to air his grievances offically to the BAB with regard to what the BAB have done and hopefully some sort of harmony can be restored here also. Regards, John. Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts. |
